GODS NOT DEAD: Stanford scientist, after decades of study, concludes: We don’t have free will

Macrobius

Megaphoron

What is being disgust:


My response:

We have as much Free Will as God grants us in His Eternal Law, and not a lick moar.[1]

[1]: https://macrobius.substack.com/p/thomism-1

> The student will notice that the books have a similar structure and outline -- typical in fact of Scholastic writings of the late 19th and 20th centuries -- and that they address the challenge of German Idealism... the philosophy of Kant, Hegel, and their followers.
 

Mike

qui transtulit sustinet
I didn't read the book so maybe the author has another take, but I believe this is very roughly the skeleton of the "hard determinist" argument:

- First premise: physicalism (a.k.a. materialism) is true (despite all appearances to the contrary)
- Second premise: if physicalism is true then some kind of determinism is true
- Third premise: if any kind of determinism is true, then free will does not exist.
- conclusion: free will does not exist

I say "some kind of determinism" because quantum mechanics suggests that the physical universe is inherently unpredictable, at least according to some interpretations of QM laws. A full statement of the second premise would point out we can't control the collapse of the wave function or anything like that.

The third premise encapsulates "hard determinism" i.e. non-compatibilism. "Soft determinism" is the view that determinism and free will are compatible.

My main problem is with the first premise. I consider physicalism to be false because I think consciousness is patently both real and nonphysical.

Found:


Every living organism is just a biological machine. But we’re the only ones that know that we’re biological machines; we are trying to make sense of the fact that we feel as if our feelings are real.

IMO machines don't know that they're machines nor do they know anything else. Machines don't have feelings in the first place, and therefore it is not a fact that they ever have the feeling that their feelings are real. Therefore machines never try to make sense of said fact, nor do they try to make sense of anything else.
 

Macrobius

Megaphoron
A few comments and I will read more deeply tomorrow.

- Quantum Mechanics is actually quite deterministic in that given the initial conditions the equations of motion crank out exactly the same sequence of states every time, in the exact same way the equations of Classical Physics (pre-quantum) do.

- There is quite a large literature in modern philosophy on consciousness and it's pretty clear 'science' is currently constituted doesn't grasp it at all. You mentioned Dennett in the SB so I presume you've read about 'philosophical zombies' and such[1]

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie

- Back to QM and its interpretation: the two points above come together in an the old speculation by von Neumann (and Wigner)[2] that human consciousness has to, somehow, be responsible for the wave function collapse that lets us use the Born rule to calculate things like molecular orbitals

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann–Wigner_interpretation
 

Petr

Administrator
Well, this is very far from being the first time when a Jewish infidel tries to grace us with the gospel of godless determinism:

Benedictus_de_Spinoza_cover_portrait.jpg



Although Spinoza’s most detailed arguments about the nature of God were elaborated in the First Part of his Ethics, first published as a part of the Opera postuma in 1677, the notorious argument against the possibility of miracles in chapter 6 of the Tractatus theologico-politicus, which ignited the controversy in 1670, deployed an account of the nature of things which touched on Stoic cosmology in significant ways. Spinoza’s argument against the possibility of miracles was premised, in the first instance, on the identification of the laws of nature with the decrees of God. More particularly, however, the violence which Spinoza’s account of God in the Tractatus performed on traditional Christian notions of Providence conjured up all of the anxieties and objections which had been expressed against Lipsius’ arguments about Stoic fate and divine Providence in De constantia. For Spinoza to assert that ‘God’s decree, command, edict and word are nothing other than the action and order of Nature’ was to proclaim the truth about Stoic determinism that Lipsius had endeavoured to deny, or, at least, to shuffle under the carpet.19
 
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Mike

qui transtulit sustinet
- Quantum Mechanics is actually quite deterministic in that given the initial conditions the equations of motion crank out exactly the same sequence of states every time, in the exact same way the equations of Classical Physics (pre-quantum) do.

Right, QM tells us that Schrodinger's cat is both alive and dead, apparently simultaneously, every time we run the experiement. QM is deterministic in that sense -- at least when we're not looking. However, when we open the box up and look, we find that the cat is either alive OR dead, not both, in accordance with common sense. And our own brain state also seems to be in ONE particular state presumably congruent with the cat observed to be in its one state before our eyes, not two or more. What QM actually predicts is that our own brain state should get "multiplied" along with the cat's life state in the QM "superposition"; we should see the cat alive and dead simultaneously. But that's simply not our experienced reality. It's almost like something, or someone, prunes the Everett parallel-universe tree to a single branch. Hmm...

Which branch remains after the pruning, leaving the one state we find Schrodinger's cat in, when we look, is not predictable from QM.

- There is quite a large literature in modern philosophy on consciousness and it's pretty clear 'science' is currently constituted doesn't grasp it at all. You mentioned Dennett in the SB so I presume you've read about 'philosophical zombies' and such[1]

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie

Yes, PZs are a good thought experiment.

- Back to QM and its interpretation: the two points above come together in an the old speculation by von Neumann (and Wigner)[2] that human consciousness has to, somehow, be responsible for the wave function collapse that lets us use the Born rule to calculate things like molecular orbitals

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann–Wigner_interpretation

There are many QM interpretations and I can't say I have a good grip on them all. Will check this link out.
 

Mike

qui transtulit sustinet
On YouTube, not only has this Sapolsky guy been interviewed several times recently, but also a lot of his lectures were published on the Stanford channel a while ago, a couple of which I had watched in the past (though I just made the connection now). I chose to watch the following recent video because the interviewer happens to be a German philosopher that I sometimes watch (he's the "profilicity" guy I mentioned in the SB).



So, this video mostly confirms what I guessed in my original post on this thread. Virtually nothing he says surprised me; he's very much entrenched in the materialism of the 20th century if not the late 19th century. My takeaways:

1. Sapolsky is a thoroughgoing physicalist who dismisses all "magical stuff" out of hand.

2. He's a determinist in the sense that he believes everything that happens incl human behavior is determined by causes both recent and ancient, not in the sense that we are able to make accurate predictions.

3. He's a "hard" determinist who maintains the incompatibility of free will with our deterministic reality.

4. He emphasizes that, while the workings of the human brain are obviously very complex and human behavior is impossible to predict in practice, the unpredictable complexity does NOT constitute a "playground" that allows us to speculate about free will existing within it.

5. QM was not discussed in the interview, which is perhaps not surprising, given that his field is biology.

6. He says very little about consciousness, except that every decade or so he checks the literature and notices that neurobiology still has made no good progress on explaining the "construct" of the conscious self.

I partly agree with (4). If you assume the universe is, at its root, a giant mindless deterministic machine and nothing else, then free will can't exist. However, by the same logic, consciousness also should not exist. But we do have consciousness. As I mentioned, I am not convinced that the universe is a machine in any case.

Sapolsky briefly talks about the ethical implications of his hard determinism, which entails that no wrong-doer should be told they have a "bad soul", (not only because souls don't exist but also) because no one actually chooses to do wrong. Apparently the criminal justice system should be radically reformed if not abolished. Sapolsky admits that a car with no brakes should not be on the road, but he does not make it clear what he thinks should replace criminal justice.

Apparently there are other ethical implications that come from his ideas, for example on race, that you can look up if you are interested. I am not interested.

In fairness to Sapolsky, I have not read his book. However, it is deeply weird to me that you could talk about ethical implications at all if you deny free will. If free will is to be regarded as non-existent, then so are ethical implications and also (of course) teleology. Consciousness SHOULD also be regarded as non-existent in that case. Problem is, we know that at least exists.
 

Mike

qui transtulit sustinet
- There is quite a large literature in modern philosophy on consciousness and it's pretty clear 'science' is currently constituted doesn't grasp it at all.

It's probably impossible for science to grasp consciousness. Science started by the maneuver of setting consciousness aside and focusing on unconscious (material) causes. I'll let DBH explain it:



Key takeaway starts at 4:30:
When [mechanism] becomes the metaphysical picture of reality, mechanism then has to account for the things that originally it was content just to put into a different sphere like mind. That means that a model of reality that was devised specifically by banishing from it everything reminiscent of mind now has to be used to explain mind. Mind must be seen as an emergent phenomenon from physical nature.

Science was first conceived as a methodology that ignored all mind-like things, incl both consciousness and natural teleology, and then morphed into a metaphysics that denied all mind-like things. Not too surprisingly a system based on ignoring and denying mind turns out to be a poor tool for understanding mind.
 
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Macrobius

Megaphoron
It's probably impossible for science to grasp consciousness. Science started by the maneuver of setting consciousness aside and focusing on unconscious (material) causes.

It's probably impossible for 'positive science' as invented by the positivist Comte in the early post-Napoleonic era to grasp it.

For the Scholastic philosophers following St Thomas Aquinas, it might possibly be a VERY DIFFERENT MATTER.


Citations therein: https://maritain.nd.edu/jmc/etext/cp.htm

About the Human Soul and its functions and capabilities.

 

Macrobius

Megaphoron
So the ones speaking against the free will aren't speeking freely but are merely wording something determined they can't control
 

Mike

qui transtulit sustinet
So the ones speaking against the free will aren't speeking freely but are merely wording something determined they can't control

Yes. They would argue they were determined by prior causes to understand that hard determinism is true, and to argue for it.
 
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